Veneering Questions

Typically you always want to veneer both sides to prevent your wood from warping.
There are exceptions however. I find that veneering a single side of hardwood with a similar species and grain running the same direction usually works fine.

The condition gets worse with veneering plywood, but having the single layer of veneer with grain running the same direction as the plywood face being covered seems to work "best".

Always seems worth it to do both sides even if you use a different backer species of veneer.

As veneered things get larger, the glue used starts to reveal monsters. Things like creeping and splitting, etc.
For narrow strips like your drawer fronts you are probably going to get good results with just about any adhesive.

For the smaller stuff I do, I really like the plain old TB cold press. Of course regular PVAs and hide glues are also up to the task.
One thing to watch out for is if your veneer has large pores or is a burl. The glue can squeeze through these openings and make a mess.

If you use a dark glue, the lines would be invisible,
One technique is to use plywood and band the edges with walnut. You can miter the banding to hide and end grain looking bits.
Sand flat and veneer.
Small potential of the banding telegraphing through if it expands more/less than the plywood in thickness.

Of course edge banding is a traditional way to hide the substrate as well and you can make some nice beaded details.

Thanks Splint!  There are a couple of holes in my veneer where there were knots.  I was hoping I could use TB Dark glue and that between that and the Walnut substrate they will be okay.  If not though I'll mix up some matching epoxy and dab it in.

So if I'm using Walnut wood and the veneer grain will be aligned with the grain of the backer, it sounds like I can use TB Dark and forego any edge banding?  But it's wise to still go ahead and veneer the back side as well?  I'm good with all that.  I just REALLY didn't want to have to veneer all the edges!

One other question, if I apply the veneer before cutting my joints (probably blind dovetails) am I going to have issues with the veneer wanting to tear off when sawing/chiseling/routing or will it behave itself?

If you use cauls to clamp your veneered boards, any excess glue will try to ooze out a knot hole.
I like to have several layers of paper towel between the veneer and caul to absorb this kind of stuff so it gets drawn away from the veneer versus just spreading out on top of it.
For a large knot hole or really any hole larger than a pencil lead, the squeeze out can become a real issue.

When I make my marquetry type panels, there are all the seams to worry about for squeeze out. Since I make them on a sheet of vinyl self adhesive shelf paper, the glue can't get through and instead gets forced out the sides where it gets trimmed off with the saw.
Shelf paper is easy to peel off after pressing, but packing tape may work in a pinch.

When doing these marquetry panels (details in various blogs), I place the shelf paper sticky side up and attach the veneer to that. Then I roll on the glue to the substrate, join it all together and press between melamine cauls.
I have found that after laying it all out, I can fill areas or defects with a colored filler (resin/dyed glue/etc.) and then proceed as usual. The colored stuff stays in place and works well.

I'd never veneer edges since I see that fall off of stuff all the time. Especially a drawer where it will be scraped whenever the drawer is opened and closed.
No guarantees, but doing just one side may work out fine, but better with two.
I've used the TB2 dark for things before and it worked fine, just need to press the 'ell out if it to make sure it is all flat (it's kinda thick).
I just use an ink roller to spread out the glue, about like a goodly coat of latex paint on a wall. A fine notched trowel  works as well.

Looking back on your idea, you might have issues keeping all the veneered parts perfectly aligned and "project ready" if you intend to pre-cut everything. The veneers like to slide around a bit as things get clamped.

A way less stressful approach would be to just make a full-front sized panel, then use a thin kerf blade to cut things out. Your drawer gaps will probably be equal to the blade kerf anyway. I have an 8" circular saw blade that has a 1/16" kerf and fits my table saw. I use that all the time for fronts. Perfect with a 1/16" kerf between drawers for clearance.

Depending on the veneer, you may want to lay a strip of masking or blue tape along the cut lines to stop chipping.
Not really an issue on the top side, but the back side can get "rough", especially on cross cuts.

Thanks Splint!  The paper towels to wick the glue is a good idea.  So is using a circular saw blade.  I'm aiming for only 1/32" gaps on these drawers though.  I could use my bandsaw to rip them to size though.  My plan was to cut them to size first then leave a little overhang when I put the veneer on but I think you're right.  Veneering the full panel will save me a few glue ups and ensure slipping veneer doesn't bite me in the ass :-)  I use blue tape when I cut dovetails anyway so I guess that will take care of that part.

Overhang would work, but then the grain alignment would be off. Also expect glue to squeeze out around the perimeter of the veneer and make a small mess on the edges of the substrate.

Yeah now that I think it through, I think veneer then cut to size is the way to go.  I appreciate all tge advice!!

Wont' any glue that seeps through create finishing issues, especially on such a thin veneer?  It will be difficult to sand the glue off without risking sanding through the veneer and since there is a hole that the glue seeped through, it seems like the glue filling the holes will repel any finish you apply? 

I have only used hot hide glue to hammer veneer (other than contact cement for laminates) and HHG is much easier to deal with excess glue squeeze out.  In fact you actually apply the glue to both sides of veneer as you hammer it down and then clean off any glue left on the surface with water.  HHG also does not suffer from issues with creep.  HHG is a whole rabbit hole that you may not want to go down for one project but now that I have the gear to do it, is how I would  do a small project like that. 

The rule of thumb is to apply veneer to both sides but I only applied it to one side  of this project.  The "box" was made with HD 1/2" maple veneered plywood.  The biggest problems that I had were getting the veneer to lay down smoothly on the inside of the circle and in places on the surface where there was figure in the veneer on the face.  In a few spots, the figured areas wanted to warp away and  I had to apply a hot iron and a wet rag to reactivate the hide glue and either rehammer it down or clamp it down with a caul (wrapped with packing tape and waxed). 

Beautiful pattern Nathan!

The paper towels is the "fix" I use exactly for the glue squeeze out you mention. It will keep the squeeze limited to filling the hole it came through. Small enough that I never have had issues with finish, even with porous burls.

Best fix is to get just the right amount of adhesives for sure or have the veneer surface covered with a non-permeable material like I use with the shelf contact paper. Of course this forces the glue out to the sides, but if the cauls are flat, the surface will also be flat though the glue layer might be a bit thicker than optimum if it can't fully expel the excess in the clamping process.

That all makes sense.  I’ll definitely do a small test on scrap before the real thing to make sure I have a handle on how to handle the glue squeeze-thru.

I think only doing one side would work fine Nathan.  But it’s not a lot more work to do both sides if I veneer it in panel form before cutting to size so better safe than sorry.  Plus, it turns out my veneer is big enough to do both sides so I don’t have to buy anything else either.

HHG is tempting and if I already had the stuff, I’d probably go that route.  I’m tempted to just do contact cement since I am familiar with it.  But I feel better about glue since doing some research so I’m going to go that route.  Plus worst case is I screw up and just have to plane the veneer back off and do plain old walnut drawers which was my original plan anyway.

My best suggestion about veneering is to Hammer veneer, using only HOT hide glue. 100% reversible, and so playing with a POS piece of veneer, preferable with holes, cracks and all kinds of faults on it, you will quickly gain experience "fixing" most of the issues you will face in real time, when you are using more expensive veneer, on possibly more expensive substrates. Also do the practice, on MDF, plywood, and solid wood, preferably pine or something like Poplar you got for cheap. All surfaces will cover somewhat differently. Also cherry versus oak, with it's more open grain will work differently. think like you are going to paint it, and want a GLASS smooth surface. Another reason so many people use MDF, it's already fixed, and ready. But it holds screws like chit, so depends how you want to use the veneered parts?

I think the biggest bonus is you can cheaply make a veneer hammer, and to get a real pot, and heater, well a garage sale fondue pot will work, for a few bucks, or to go first class Lee Valley sells the deal for less than 60 IIRC. Unless I missed something even the cheapest vac will cost a few hunnert. Pearls of hide glue aren't a deal breaker either versus the glues you will use with a vac. Plus all of your classics, in all of the museums were made via a hammer, so any project is doable, and did I mention 100% reversible, so you can fix mistakes on the run. 

A lot of people look at hammering like using only hand tools to build with. A quick journey into it, will quickly convince you this isn't it. I find it pretty relaxing. Fun, and certainly cheap to do. Plus did I mention it's 100% reversible? Heat and a bit of water make fixes easy. So an iron, please don't use the Wives, and a small spray bottle with some water, I use distilled? Even if you don't notice the goof until a day or so later. It truly makes that learning curve a lot easier to deal with issues. Drag it out of some bag, and what you get is all you got. Oppps is painful, and often expensive, for me that is a detriment to learning. 

Thanks George!  I’ve talked myself out of HHG though.  Don’t get me wrong, it makes perfect sense but it’s also something else in the shop to store when not in use and something I wmay never use again.  Like I said, worst case with PVA is a fee swipes with a hand plane and move on without the veneer.  If it was wxpensive veneer that might not be the case but I got it for <$20  on ebay so if I trash it, I trash it and it costs less than the HHG part.  I don’t have the time for yard sales and even if I did, the chances of finding the pot around here are slim to none.

I totally get the hesitance of going down the HHG rabbit hole but you can do it on the cheap.  I have an actual glue pot now but when I did that mirror above, I did it with a $7 hot plate I bought on eBay and an old pot filled with water and I cooked the glue in the water bath in a glass jar.  I also bought a cheap analog fast read cooking thermometer to monitor the temperature of the glue.   The biggest expense was a veneer hammer but you can make that yourself (see Shipwright's old bogs on LJ if you can wade through the destruction they did to blogs in the conversion).  He has some videos on Youtube too.     LeeValley has a glue pot that does not take up too much space that would be fine for occasional small projects like this. 

Hammer veneering is one the most gratifying processes I have done in the shop.  It is right up there with using a well tuned hand plane but instead of the schick sound, you get a crackle when it is working as the air and excess glue are hammered out from underneath the veneer (you use the veneer hammer sort of like a squeegee while applying pressure).  When it stops the crackling, the veneer is stuck down and there  usually no more clamping needed.  
 

Yeah, it’s not the cost that has me hesitating as much as the fact that my shop is full of crap that I bought for a project and never used again.  I’m working on forcing myself to purge all of that crap and not allow myself to add any more!

If you do it on the cheap, you can just throw the crap out when you are done if you find you won't ever do it again.  You could for example, cook and heat the glue in the kitchen, take the pot with water bath and jar of glue to the shop, apply the glue and hammer down the veneer with a veneer hammer made from scraps from your wood pile.  And one of the best things about it is that if you screw it up, it is completely reversible with heat and moisture so you can try again or simply just remove it. 

Another cool thing about HHG is how well rub joints work.  When I was first experimenting with HHG and practicing by hammering down some veneer that I cut on my band saw.  I also did a few rub joints with some scraps.  With no clamping,  even after just 15 minutes they were solid enough that I could have proceeded with other assembly if I was using it in a large glue up and after waiting overnight, the simple rub joints I tried were unbreakable.  I had to use leverage or a hammer to break them and it was the wood that broke not the rub joints.  I actually used HHG for the entire glue up of that mirror above, including some rub joints for brace blocks in corners for reinforcing a few joints.  The only real downside to HHG, other than investing in a way to heat the glue and a veneer hammer, is the planning it takes to cook the glue and heat it up in time for the glue up so I only use it when I have a big glue up planned or for veneer.   For smaller glue ups I often use liquid hide glue because it shares most of the benefits of HHG, except you cannot use it for hammer veneering.   

I like the banding with matching hardwood.  Preventing chipping of the veneer edges.

I have done a "cock bead" that looks good.

Kenny, makes me wonder, what if you did try HHG, and found that you really liked it a lot? Think what would have happened if you had the thought, Beer, no way, I have a list of too many things to eat, or drink, I'm not adding Beer to that list. See, it could be like that too. :-)

Just jabbing ya, be well.

That’s exactly what I’m afraid of George.  And it takes a lot longer to veneer a project than it does to pour a beer!

How hot does the warmer need to be?  I have an electric skillet.  Could I put the water in that and heat up the glue in a glass jar?

The ideal temperature for the glue is 140°F and it must never go above 160°F or it is ruined so you need something that has enough control where you can keep the glue in that range.  I would not assume that temperature control scale on the skillet is accurate either.  Use a cheap cooking thermometer to monitor.  One like this is what I use.  And that is exactly what I did.  I filled a pot with water and put the jar in the water to cook and heat.  I just used a hot plate and pot, instead of a skillet.  Check to see if you can get the temperature of  jar filled with water in a water bath to stabilize between 140 and 150 and you are good to go.   Another option is to find a small crock pot with a temperature control, fill it with water and put the far in the water and see if you can get the temperature in that range.  Crock pots are sort of designed to maintain an even temperature but without a temperature control may be too high.   

BTW, when the glue is mixed right and at temperature, it is much thinner than you would think it should be.    As soon as the temperature drops to around 120°, IIRC, it starts to gel which is why it works so well for veneer.  Until it gels, you can still move the veneer around but as soon as it does, it sticks so in cooler weather you have to work a little more quickly or have heaters running.  I recommend about a 1-1.5" natural bristle brush to spread the glue.  You can find ones specifically design for HHG but for a first attempt that is not necessary.  I sometimes just use acid brushes for small glue ups but for spreading quickly on veneer and the substrate, you need a larger one to get full coverage quickly (not as critical in warm weather). 

Here is a good video by Shipwright (Paul) that shows the process and the use of the veneer hammer and what convinced me, along with his advice and consultation, to give it a try for that mirror project.  That was my first hammer veneering project and I cannot imagine trying to do that one any other way.