I built the cabinet from maple to save money. Now it was time to try to darken it to the middle-toned mahogany finish our friend wanted. I knew I didn’t want to use a pigment stain on maple. I thought a dye stain could work, but I really wanted to use water-based poly toned with dye. I thought it would be easier to apply than other options, and I could control the depth of color by applying more or fewer coats.
I’ve used TransTint dyes before (as a stain, not a toner), and I showed our friend the TransTint color chart. She liked the brown mahogany color the best.
To test the dye as a toner, I mixed it with General Finishes High Performance Water Based poly (flat finish) in a 1:64 ratio. When I applied it to a test piece, I could immediately see something was amiss. The mixture was pulling and coalescing into circular depressions (fish-eyes).
When the finish dried, the color looked good, but there were light spots throughout the finish.
I didn’t know if the flattening agents in the poly were interacting with the dye, if I was using too much dye, or if there was another cause. I wrote to TransTint, and their reply was that they’d never seen TransTint cause fish-eye, that there must be some contaminant in either the wood or the poly, and that I should test with and without the dye on other pieces of wood. I finished a random scrap from my bin with the poly, and it was fine.
Instead of running a lot of other toning tests, I decided to try applying the dye as a water-reduced stain (not a toner) and top-coating it with poly. That worked better. I still saw some circles in the wet and drying poly, but nowhere as many as I had seen before.
When the poly dried, I didn’t see the light spots I had seen in the toned sample. I decided to give this approach a try on the interior surfaces of the center cavities.
I tested several concentrations of the dye and settled on a mixture of 1 teaspoon of dye per 4 ounces of water. I applied the mixture liberally, spreading it evenly with a foam brush, and wiped off almost no excess. I just worked the brush back and forth to even out the color and make sure there were no puddles. That approach yielded a nice, mostly even color.
Encouraged by that result, I continued with the poly. I applied the first coat very quickly, because I knew the water-based poly was going to reactivate the dye and, in the worst case, lift enough of it to cause pale areas. After that coat dried, I lightly sanded it with 320-grit paper and added two more coats. The results were acceptable. The color was good and mostly uniform, and the surface was smooth. (The plywood back panels were paler and blotchier, but I expected that. I was afraid to sand the very thin surface veneer, and there wasn’t much material for the dye to penetrate.)
Upon closer inspection, the finish showed a slight orange peel effect. You can see it in the bright section of the front shelf below. The surface felt smoother than it looked (in raking light).
That result was good enough for the center cavity. Most of it is hidden by the drawers, and the open cavity is so small and dark that the orange peel is hard to see. It wasn’t going to be good enough for the cabinet’s outer surface, though.
I decided to apply a seal coat of shellac over the dye before adding the poly (something I should have done from the start). I wanted to spray it with rattle can shellac (Zinsser Bulls Eye), but the instructions say not to use it as a seal coat under poly. (There also seems to be disagreement on the web about whether it’s wax-free or not.) I decided not to tempt fate and bought a quart of Zinsser SealCoat (wax-free shellac, 2 lb. cut).
The problem with SealCoat is that I didn’t have any denatured alcohol (and didn’t know where to buy it) to use to clean a brush, and I didn’t want to ask my wife if I could use one of her brushes as a sacrificial brush. (She’s the painter in the household.) I decided to try wiping it on.
I decided to try this new finishing approach on the least visible surface, the cabinet bottom. The dye looked good, as before.
I quickly wiped on two coats of the shellac with a blue shop towel, then sanded it smooth. I think brushing would have been easier, but wiping worked well enough. The only problem I had is that, if I left a puddle or spilled a large drop on the surface, it seemed to dissolve part of the dye, leaving a light patch.
The poly went on very smoothly over shellac. As a bonus, I needed only two coats of poly instead of the three I had planned. The shellac took the place of the first coat of poly, which is basically a sealer coat anyway.
At this point, I decided to pre-finish every surface except the top. (I didn’t want the clamps I’d use during the case glue-up to damage the finish.) That involved tedious taping of the areas to receive glue later, but it went well.
I installed the drawer slides and glued the center assembly together before finishing its outer surfaces (the inner surfaces of the cabinet’s side cavities).
After the poly dried, I would be ready to glue the case together.
I've always avoided adding TT dye to water based finishes for the same reasons you found. Mixing in with shellac (cut with alcohol) works well as a toner and sealer coat. I always spray to avoid the drips and rush of applying. With that dry, I've had no problems with either a WB or oil based top coat.
As with BB, I hate stains and much prefer dyes, but applying to raw wood has its own issues with getting even coats as it dries very fast.
I dislike staining/dyeing wood too (even more after this experience). If I knew that sapele with an oil finish would have make the recipient happy, it wouldn't have ended up costing as much as I first thought. I've never used it, so I didn't have any samples to show her.
Barb, yes, that's the exact shellac I had hoped to use. The reason I didn't is this section of the Bulls Eye Shellac data sheet.
I bet it would have worked just fine, but I didn't want to risk being wrong.
Splint, I didn't expect any problems using TransTint in the water-based poly because the TransTint directions indicate it should work fine. TransTint's customer support didn't say anything different either. But it just seems to me that it's incompatible with this particular poly. (Or I just had too much dye.) If I had some GF gloss/clear poly on hand, I'd try it to see if the flatteners were the culprit.
I have mixed feelings about the finish I achieved. There is some splotching, and the finish looks great in some light and sort of dull and washed out in others. But our friend loves how it looks, and that's the important thing.
Well, this project post describes extremely well and in great fantastic detail my worst nightmare. Seriously, this is a great writeup of your recent finishing episode, provides good advise on this segment of woodworking. What you experienced here is the reason why the majority of my projects are made with black cherry. Cherry is beautiful wood to start with, and as it ages the color becomes even more beautiful. The sum total of my finishing is the application of a clear wipe on poly. Arm R Seal is what I started with early on, and I still really like the product, but with the newer water based wipe-ons, that actually look pretty darn good, I'm going that route now. Wipe it on, it dries quickly, give it 3 coats then move on to the next project.
There are the two forms of Zinsser, wax(ish) and dewaxed. "Bullseye SealCoat" states "100% wax free" at the bottom of the front can label. 2lb. cut so a typical 1lb. cut will let you get 1/2 gallon from the quart can. I just use the "alcohol" labeled 1 gal. cans from the big box stores or Walmart.
I have used TransFast dyes (powdered) with a water based poly (Minwax) and it worked fine for one large project on white oak. I sprayed the water.dye mix directly on the raw wood, wiped it down to equalize the color over the surface, then sprayed on the WB poly. Not quite dark enough do I added some to the poly directly as a toner. That was about 20 years ago so I don;t know if it is still made, but it specifies mix with water (no mention of other solvents).
TransTint and TransFast are both wood dyes, but they differ in their form and use. TransTint is a liquid dye concentrate that can be mixed with various solvents, including water, alcohol, and lacquer thinner, making it versatile for toners and stains. TransFast is a powdered dye that is only soluble in water.
Key Differences:
Form:
TransTint is a liquid concentrate, while TransFast is a powdered dye.
Solubility:
TransTint can be mixed with water, alcohol, and lacquer thinner, while TransFast is only soluble in water.
Use:
TransTint can be used for toners in finishes, while TransFast is more suitable for basic staining.
Application:
TransTint can be applied by spraying or brushing, while TransFast is generally applied by wiping or brushing.
Compatibility with Finishes:
TransTint's solubility in various solvents can lead to issues with certain topcoats if not handled carefully, while TransFast's water solubility is less prone to lifting.
Lightfastness:
Both are considered lightfast, meaning they are resistant to fading from UV light, but TransTint, being a metallized dye, may offer a higher level of lightfastness
Barb, yes, that's the exact shellac I had hoped to use. The reason I didn't is this section of the Bulls Eye Shellac data sheet.
I wonder if there is a difference in the can vs the spray (see this sentence that differs from your source - specifically say "Spray Shellac")? If I have time, I may try calling their CS as now I'm curious.
Yep, both the spray can BB shows and the SealCoat are wax free. The other Zinsser product (only in cans AFIK) is a primer that contains some wax but probably not enough to cause problems with paint type top coats.
Tom, some of my favorite projects are Arm-R-Seal over walnut. I haven’t worked with cherry yet. Something like Odie’s Oil that Barb likes would be even easier to use.
Barb, I bet you’re right. I should gone to a local store and read the instructions on the spray can. Spraying it would have been much easier. I don’t own a sprayer to do the kind of finishing Splint mentioned.
Splint, what section of the stores has these one gallon cans of “alcohol,” and what kind of alcohol is it? I’ve read that some places sell denatured alcohol as camping stove fuel. I’ve also read that Everclear from the liquor store is usable with shellac.
It would be great to set aside the time (and money) to get proficient with all the different finishing techniques. I always learning in the context of specific projects, where I’m willing to run a few tests, but my focus is on finishing the project.
Gets confusing as I think the "clear" shellac can is the same color as the spray.
in my experience, the spray can is really clear (light blonde) and the can is an amber. I prefer the spray just because no mixing and it's always ready.
Ron, It has changed over the years. Last can I bought is this:
And other times I have used this:
Every store has had them in amongst the paint and finishing stuff.
Everclear is pure, but $$$$$
The denatured alchohols are usually a mix of various stuff, but all have worked well. The pharmacy stuff always has some glycerine mixed in which can't be good, but then again it really takes a high percentage of these things to mess things up.
Finishing is always the thing that gets rushed since you are at the last step before calling it done. If you have an air compressor, spraying is the best for large surfaces. The $9 spray gun (with coupon) from Harbor Freight (purple) is quite a bargain and cheap enough to toss away versus cleaning 😬
Yeah, looks like the first can I ever bought. I think it was blond (colorless) and of course clear, but learned that it is not dewaxed. Fine for a top coat but not the best for a seal coat that gets topcoated with something different (like poly)
This is what I've gleaned from the two "types" of canned Zinsser: Blond, clear, not dewaxed: Amber, dewaxed:
It’s confusing that Bulls Eye Shellac in an a regular can contains wax while the product with the identical name in a spray can is wax-free. It’s even worse that the technical sheet on Rust-Oleum’s website covers both variations without mentioning that distinction and clearly states that the product is not recommended for use under poly when the spray can’s label says otherwise.