43 Replies

Man, what a broad subject. Are you talking stains, top coats, a combination of both? Polyurethane or varnish or BLO?

Most of my projects these days are functional furniture and cabinets. I use a variety of oil stains on most woods but have begun relying more on dyes to get a deeper luster to the wood. Since everything has to be functional, I have gone to Valspar conversion varnish applied with an air assisted airless. The CV has good UV protection, is non-yellowing, and almost impervious to common household chemicals.

Artisan Woodworks of Texas- www.awwtx.com

I’ve recently started using Saicos Hardwax Oil. It’s a very easy to use, extremely durable, and easily repaired surface. I haven’t much experience with it yet but I’m pretty impressed so far.
I’d be interested to hear anyone else’s experiences with it.

The early bird gets the worm but its the second mouse that gets the cheese.

I like to use BLO, 2-3 coats, then followed by Tung oil. When all is dry maybe some wax. Takes a long time but then I am usually not in a hurry. I try not to use stain because I very easily can make a total mess of it.
I like the organicness of oil, whether or not it is better for you than other finishes.

Tor and Odin are the greatest of gods.

We use MinWax Antique Oil. We use it because, unlike BLO and most oil finishes, it doesn’t expand as it dries. It’s incredibly aggravating to find a few thousand dollars worth of finished items ruined by small checks at the end of every exposed medullary ray. To test for expansion during drying just pour a small amount of finish in a dish and let it dry over night. If it wrinkles up, it’s an expanding finish. Look for one that dries smooth as glass.

We also want our finishes to be relatively permeable. Our products are designed to reach equilibrium as quickly as possible when relative humidity changes. We’re far more concerned about shape stability in our products than actual dimensional stability. We want to get core moisture content equal to surface moisture content as quickly as possible. MinWax Antique Oil allows for this very well yet still offers surface protection from hand oils and other grime.

Oil finishes in general are mostly cosmetic, but I like Danish oil type finishes because they have resins in them which does provide some protection while the oil brings out the color of the wood and leaves a natural looking grain, buts with some luster. It is easy to apply and to maintain, requiring just a good cleaning and new coat occasionally (it can be years in between). You can also make your own easily enough from oil, poly and white spirit using 1/3 of each ingredient, although I haven’t done this myself yet.

Mike, an American living in Norway

I like danish oil. I often cover it with poly as well. But there is nothing like the instant beautiful you get from danish oil.

Losing fingers since 1969

lwllms,
I was delighted to see your post. I have oftened talked about the expansion of wood due to oil finishes. While most have not noticed or attributed distortion due to seasonal changes, I agree oil finishes can distort wood. It seems the slower drying the worse it is , due to penetration I would assume.
In doing research I used about every type of oil I could get, from the BLO, hard wax , Danish, Walnut ,etc.
We tested the oils on glass, this showed us if they yellowed, and how they dried . It was quite interesting, it dispelled the notion that oils add color to wood, not the case. Very few had enough color to be of any effect unless like a danish oil a colorant was added.
It became quite evident that rather than adding color the oils reacted with the natural tannins in the wood, and the slower it dried the more reaction.
This is one of the reasons that BLO is highly popular for “popping” grain". It dries slow . One interesting thing we did find was that the same BLO that was 3 years old dried much faster and more throughly than a new can . It is my opinion that driers are being added rather than an actual boiling process (polimerzation), I came to this conclusion by adding Japan drier to raw linseed oil and it reacted and dried about the same .
As most know many of the oils are varnish oils, which is a blend of oils, resins and driers, we found these to be the best, in both dry time and durability .
The Minwax Antique oil, was one that did well, as well as their wipe on poly, General Finishes Arm R Seal, Formbys Tung Oil, ( not really tung) , Waterlox (yellows) , all did well. The new System Three Marine Spar Varnish ( excellent but expensive) .
There were others, but I like a nice close to the wood oil finish, but doing this for a living it has to dry quickly and be very durable, clients do not want to “renew” .

I thought this a good subject to get this finishing forum rolling .. I am also impressed with the basis of knowledge we have here.

That’s a great topic. Thanks Charles.

I can’t claim to know much a bout oil and finishes in general.
I have been reading about outdoor finishes a little and I am still confused. I am hoping one of you can expand on outdoor finishes /oils
Marine spar varnish seems to come up high on list. But depending who is writing they all have different experiences that contradict the other writer.
So what is the best outdoor finish that:
-Does not need to be refreshed every year,
-Protect from the elements (rain, sun etc…)
-Protect against UV
-Does not require a degree in finishing to apply
-Is not too dangerous to handle.

Abbas, Castro Valley, CA

I dont claim to be an expert on exterior finishes, but I have tested a couple that have proved thus far to do well.. one is called One Time, its an oil based product, and the second is the System Three Marine Spar varnish. I used it on 10 white oak deck chairs that are sitting outside in Vermont, it s only been 8 months on them but they look like new. The one time I put it on some old treated plywood, it still looks good . I much prefer a oil or penetrating product over a film finish, because they are easier to renew and dont peel or flake.. Just my experience and opinion, I feel sure others have other experiences.
I have also often used exterior paint untinted, it then becomes a water base clear coating , I have also used General finishes, Exterior 450 , and thus far 2 years no issue .

Now days for the home, I really like composits and vinyl …HA HA ( not really , im a wood guy)

Thanks Charles.

I have read the same on untinted paint. I am curious and will probably give that a try.

Abbas, Castro Valley, CA

I remember a long term test comparison with various types of other outdoor finishes in an article in Fine Woodworking mag. They found marine varnishes with UV protection to be the best, most long lasting outdoor finish. I am personally against any type of film finish for the outdoors for the reasons stated by Charles. I have used a outdoor film varnish with Tung oil which is very popular here in Norway ‘Benar olje’. It looks wonderful for two or three years on outside doors, but you have to sand to renew and that is not fun, especially because of it being more elastic than indoor film finishes so that the sand paper becomes clogged very easy.

Mike, an American living in Norway

Is cabot timber oil any good. Sorry I don’t want to highjack the thread…

Abbas, Castro Valley, CA

lanwater ..I don’t know I have never used it

so I’m a bit worried now. I have a few sketches in my notebook of a table I want to build. It’s a sort of “maxi sofa table” so not too deep about 50 cm wide and 120 long. It’ll have three elm planks framed in mahogany, ….mahogany, elm, mahogany, elm, mahogany, elm, mahogany. I want to “frame” the elm. The two outside mahogany strips will be about a quarter the width of the elm boards (110mm), the two inner mahogany about a centimeter wide. The ends will be mahogany breadboards as wide as the elm and the whole thing sits on a mahogany leg frame.

All the mahogany has been reclaimed from an old church and remilled into boards. The elm is also very old and dry.

I was going to finish it with BLO and many coats of shellac…Am I going to have wood explosions? Should I consider poly instead?

-- Alec (Friends call me Wolf, no idea why)

Excellent topic, thanks Charles for bringing it up, and thanks everyone for the great, informative replies. Helps a newbie like me!
I like DO for its simplicity and the fact that I can put a few coats of wipe on poly on top if I want a bit more durability. Similar to this, I’ve been using Minwax “tung oil” recently, it seems to have a bit more warmth to it than the traditional DO.
I use BLO on stuff that I don’t mind recoating eg. tool handles, workbench etc. I don’t like the yellow tinge it imparts, so I haven’t used it too often for “finer” projects.

Rob, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario

IMO, the only reason to treat a piece of wood with oil is to make it appear that it hasn’t been treated, while emphasizing the grain. And even that effect can be achieved by manipulating a resin finish in application.

CWS, I agree we can take that subject up next.. Its would be a good discussion I think, however when you refer to a resin finish , many of these oils are just that ,. they have resins in them particulary the varnish oils .

Wolf and Rabbit.. no your not going to explode the piece, however I would suggest a good varnish oil, it will be absorbed and dry well.Not sure what you have available in your part of the world, I would not use BLO,, A good varnish oil would do well, do you have minwax poly oil, or Formbys. If you can list some of the oil products you have available , we may be able to get you in the right direction, I would only use the shellac as a sealer if your looking to top coat. Shellac while good for projects that will not recieve hard use, is not ,in my opinion a good choice for a table top that will see use.

Charles, my comments relate to BLO, real tung oil, and those products using “Oil” on the label, which form no or minimal film on curing. Rather than split hairs, I’ll limit my reference to urethane and alkyd based resin finishes that often if not usually include drying oils in the formulas, but cure to a measurable film.

As an aside, I think it unethical for the finish manufacturers who cater to the DIY/hobbyist market to withhold product formulations and deceive by name (Danish Oil for instance) and false labeling.

I think the name Danish oil probably derives from the use of this type finish by the Danish furniture industry. They produce a lot of nice quality furniture there and the ‘natural’ look most of their products have has been popular for many years and continues to be so even today. I think they realized early on that they needed a more durable finish than just oil imparts and I suppose that is why they settled on the oil/poly, linseed oil or tung oil/spirit combo.

Mike, an American living in Norway

Whilst this post was started some time ago, one can quite easily refer to these topics much later in time.
There are a huge range of coatings, from natural, modified to fully synthetic. It is always good to know of the options and the pros and cons of as many products as you can, that way one has the choice. If unsure of a product, it is always good to do your own tests and samples. Often, there is no one product that will suit all projects.
If using a product that comes in direct contact with food, or little mouths, then one should really ensure that it is certified food safe or safe for toys. At the very least, one should know the actual ingredients of products. That way, you can make an informed choice.
Natural oils such as Livos (and there are a number on the market) are vapour permeable and allow the timber to move, this ensures no edge bonding. Being penetration oils, one can quiet easily repair and rejuvenate a surface without the need to sand back. The clear oils highlight and intensify the actually colour of the timber one is working with. Containing natural resin, waxes and oil, it is an easy process to buff the dry coat to flatten he wax crystals in the oil and so achieve a glossier look.
In the majority of cases, one wants to highlight the natural colour of the timber that is being worked with. However at times the piece of timber may have yellow tones that intensify with the finish. Here, one can use a white pigmented oil to keep it in its original sanded look. There a many options, it all depends on the outcome and personal preference that is to be achieved.
As to external oils, the darker the stain, the better the UV protection. For external surfaces, it is important to know the maintenance regime as it is no use obtaining a product that will last many years but then needs to be resanded to recoat. Again, external penetrating oils come in natural and synthetic. Synthetic oils often leave a layer that shows uneven wear and tear whereas penetrating pigmented ones, fade off evenly. This generally just requires a clean of the surface and reapply another coat as upkeep. Of course the more natural a product is, confirmed by knowing the full ingredients, then the less contamination the surrounding environment will receive from any runoff.

The Livos Lady

I don’t have a finishing room so speed is very important. Most of the time it is tung oil, then a brush on coat of satin poly followed with 4 coats of wipe on poly. Sanding between all coats but the last two. Sometimes if color is needed the tung oil is replaced with stain. Remember to use wood conditioner on certain woods before staining. This makes the color more uniform. ?

My Woodshop is my happy place? trimandcraft.ca https://www.facebook.com/Trimandcraft

I usually go with Watco Danish Oil. Quick and easy application, great results, and simple to use. Sometimes I’ll top coat it with a wipe on poly if I feel like I need more protection, but usually not.

If it’ll go on wood, I use it.

I always have a couple gallons of hardening oils on hand – one of boiled linseed oil and one of tung oil. They sit next to my gallons and quarts of waterborne and oil based ply finishes. The latter include some from Daly’s (scored them for a dollar a quart from a place going out of business), Varithane and so on. They include satins, semigloss and clear. They also include interior and exterior finishes.

I don’t have a lot of love for most clear coats on exterior wood. While the high end stuff (e.g., $150/gallon) will hold up to marine environments, it remains there is no magic, maintenance free product.

Since I and my customers are too cheap to use the high end stuff, I make my own long oil finishes by merely adding tung oil to poly.

When playing with items that were (and did) sit in front of a fire place for decades, I thinned the product about seventy percent using paint thinner and applied it as long as it would soak it up, then just added more throughout the day, when I walked by or thought of it. When the day was done, a six inch slab was, literally, saturated through. After that, I backed off on the thinner, first to fifty percent, then about fifteen. Forty years later and no cracks.

My rule in life and dealing with wood is simple:

Wood shrinks as it dries out. Accordingly, do everything you can to diminish shrinking and, of course, expansion by way of moisture transfer.

Oils don’t evaporate. Still, applications seem to disappear. This is because the oil wicks cell to cell. One of the best example of this I saw was a garage door I built using northwest red cedar salvaged from a spalt pile at a friend’s cedar mill in the Pacific Northwet. The first coat of used motor oil I applied lasted about three months. The second, only a little longer. The third, on the other hand, is still notable a decade later.

I applied what I learned from the above situation to a butcher block I purchased on the cheap. The joints were separating and the wood was cracking and splitting from shrinkage.

I flowed mineral oil on and kept doing it until is quit sucking it up. Then I slathered on one last, very generous coat and walked away. A few weeks later, I looked at it and all the cracks, splits and separations were gone. The wood had swelled back until the oil saturated it similar to what its original moisture content was.

In short, applications of non-hardening oils are cumulative. The wood needs time to absorb oil, but an aggressive oil regimen

Obviously, a hardening oil would not work, since it would harden before it could swell the wood back to its original dimensions.

These concepts should be considered for furniture too. I have even read pro’s (the names of whom most here would recognize) ramble garbage about not finishing the inside of chests of drawers and things, even as they, elsewhere, warn of the problems of moving a piece of fine furniture from England [or the Pacific Northwet] to Arizona, because of the moisture loss and subsequent wood shifts that damage the piece. In short, religious oiling CAN replace lost moisture and has been proven to work.

When posting my reply, I neglected to mention hardening finishes, including oils, will penetrate, if keep them wet. It’s only after you allow them to start hardening that you seal the wood surface against future applications, other than for build coats.

Lanwater, on oils, there is a lot of information out there. Basically, it starts off with the difference between hardening (e.g., walnut, tung, boiled (not really) linseed oil, etc.) and non hardening oils (e.g., Quakerstate 20 weight, mineral oil, etc.).

From there, it gets into oil based finishes like Varithane and so on. Back in the day, these were called long oil or short oil finishes. That was just a way of saying they went long on the oil, that is, added more, or went short on it.

Long oil finishes are what most marine type finishes are. By adding more oil, the final finish is more flexible, so tolerates shifts due to moisture content changes. The down side is, they are less durable.

Of course, additives can make all the difference. For example, most poly finishes contain resins that contribute to their durability.

Now, jump to names and claims of finishes. As most know, rare is the tung oil finish that actually contains tung oil. So to it goes with Danish oil or Teak oil.

Instead, the “tung oil finish,” unless it says “pure tung oil,” or “100% tung oil” is just boiled linseed oil with some resin and thinner added. You get the same stuff by thinning a can of your favorite oil based finish about fifty or more percent with paint thinner, turpentine or naphtha.

As to Danish oil, just like that no babies were used in its making. . . . And how many teak trees did the manufacture squeeze to get that relatively inexpensive teak oil?

Usually, the reason people have luck with these kinds of finishes is, they tend, that is maintain the wood project regularly with it. As it dulls or weathers, they apply another light coat, which fills and seals cracks and splits in the previous finish.

All the exterior finishes use some kind of U.V. protectant. If memory serves, titanium oxide is common. These additives reflect the sun’s rays back, away from the wood.

Anyone ever put oil based poly over BLO? I am making a baseball bat display out of cherry. I put BLO on it with intentions to lacquer over it as I have done in the past. The customer just moved the delivery date up close enough that I don’t have time for lacquer to dry. I have only ever used brushing lacquer. Will poly be ok?

All the time, InidanaJoe. It’s common practice. People use the oil to “pop” the grain, then surface coat with poly.

I guess I’m confused……………..

Lacquer dries in minutes, poly dries in days. Why would you even consider poly if the timeline has been accelerated?

Artisan Woodworks of Texas- www.awwtx.com

I have only sprayed deft lacquer in the past. When I spray it the odor seems to last a week or two. I don’t want to deliver a product that still has an odor. I have thought about using a post cat lacquer although I have never used it before. Any thoughts? Should a week after applying the blo be long enough?

If you are talking about oil popping the grain, then it is a modified oil and not a true oil. Anything waterbased and is washable in water, contains some amount of water. If applying two different types of products, e.g. water based and natural, do some testing first as there may be compatibility issues that do not appear in the beginning. Modified tung oil contains mixtures of various products…and not necessarily natural products either, just depends on the manufacturer.

The smell or odor is not the only issue as a product may not necessarily smell but be still off gassing nasties. If the surface is to come in contact with food, one would need to ensure it is food safe especially if money is changing hands. If small children around, then one would need to be aware of any health issues that can arise with any odour from varnishes.

The Livos Lady

Modified in oils can mean a couple things. For example, I have part of the last gallon of pure tung oil I bought. I has nothing added, but is modified by that it has been somewhat polymerized to speed its hardening. With it, I bought the heavy metal additives that cause it to polymerize more quickly.

Boiled linseed oil is just flax seed that, also, has had some of the polymerization process done in advance, to speed drying. It’s not actually boiled. Rather, the name came from the bubbling that resulted from blowing air throw it, since oxygen polymerizes the flax seed. It has heavy metals added to speed hardening too.

Oil based polyurethanes are just mixes of hardening oils, solvents and resin. The common stuff is boiled linseed oil based and the high end stuff is tung oil based.

Whitacrebespoke, that’s about the third official explanation of how boiled linseed oil got its name I’ve come across.

It’s my understanding flaxseed oil would still harden without other processes. Just not as fast. It reacts with oxygen, which results in the polymerization process, so has even been used to absorb oxygen.

In the end, it appears school is still out.

Livos Lady, I went to look up Livos oil, but couldn’t find any information on its ingredients, other than general statements about organics, natural and the usual. Since your name suggests you are tied to it, can you tell us more?

Hi Kelly
Yes, I know what you mean however there are products worldwide , one being Livos that go to great lengths to produce products based on renewable raw materials. Some go to an additional length of fully declaring the ingredients. This is the only way customers, especially those with sensitivities or allergies are able to make an informed choice.

Re the Certification, whilst there are those that obtain certain “awards” or “acknowledgements” to make their products stand out, there are though legitimate companies that actually test products for certain criteriors…such as food safety, toy safe etc.

Please do not get me wrong, I am not a chemist nor a woodturner, but have worked with timber for over 20 years so anything mentioned here is my opinion and is only to be used as food for thought. For example, why use a mineral oil, a distillation of petroleum when one can use a product made from linseed oil, natural waxes and resins? If you are making something for yourself, one can do anything but it gets a bit problematic when one sell an item or gives it away.

In my experience pure linseed doesn’t harden unless it has some sort of additives. If for example you leave a bottle of linseed oil open, it will not even form a skin. Also, there differences in the molecular structure of boiled and cold press linseed oil.

And yes, I believe what is food safe or not will continue to be debated for a long time to come.

The Livos Lady

My understanding is that mineral oil is approved by the fda for consumption. It’s sold as a laxative.

Losing fingers since 1969

Pure linseed oil is flax seed oil and, like olive oil, will go rancid over time.

Too, even if the polymerization process is not speed up, it’s my understanding it will still harden. As such, you’ll end up with a sticky mess, as the process progresses.

The only way I could see to avoid this is, treat is some how.

Many use walnut cooking oil, since it’s a hardening oil and can be used straight out of the kitchen bottle for treating wood. Of course, it is a hardening oil, so we’re back to whether it’s better to treat with hardening oil or other drying or hardening finish versus mineral oil.

There are probably a few soy based products with claims too, but I’m no fan of this “yet another use for GMO soy.”

Whitacrebespoke, have you noted any surface build up on the horizontal parts of the gates, or the typical orange peeling from applying layers of flax seed oil?

I know boiled linseed oil orange peels if too thick.

Hi Kelly
I’m sorry I think I have posted the above reply in the wrong thread.
If you look up Livos Kunos you will probably find it. I put a website on here but it was removed understandably however, all the products do have a full ingredient disclosure.

The Livos Lady

There is a lot of erroneous information someone might want to correct on the Livos site question and answer pages. For example:

“A varnished floor has a plastic coating covering the timber boards. These coatings are generally hard, and edge bond the boards together. That is, the coating does not allow the boards to move, which may cause wide, uneven gaps in some floors. So-called water based coatings and urethane based ‘Tung Oils’ also create a coating, however they generally do not edge bond the boards as the coatings are not as strong.”

Tung oils are not urethane based, though urethanes, or polyurethanes use it as their base, then have resins added, as part of the process of making polyurethanes. The less expensive brands use linseed oil.

Too, tung oil is stronger than linseed oil.

As an aside, another reason tung oil is used for many finishes is, it is not as prone to darkening the wood as linseed (a/k/a) flax seed oil.

Finally, suggesting the oil finish is better because the wood can move more, which is nothing more than shrinking and expanding, as the wood gains and losses moisture, compared to poly, which is indicated to make the boars less prone to movement, makes no sense and suggest a lack of knowledge of what causes the gaps in wood floors.

Every wood floor I finished had gaps because the wood lost moisture. That is why I always applied a highly thinned coat and allowed it to flow between cracks and such and, preferably, under the flooring (between the wood and the barrier between it and the subfloor. This helped slow moisture loss, and gain. Of course, since the poly finishes were merely an oil base with resin added, thinning them allowed them to penetrate the wood were, once the thinner evaporated, the poly could react with the air, just as your product does and harden.

Adding raw oil finish, if it took a couple weeks to cure, would close gaps, as the oil soaked in and swelled the wood. Of course, if the hardening process took only a day or two, there isn’t going to be enough wicking to effect expansion of the wood significantly.

Whiacrebespokabababa, how much thinner did you use? I sounds like an interesting experiment.

CWS, add to the con collection teak oil and tung oil finishes. For the former, come on, how many teak trees did they really squeeze for that can of teak oil. For the latter, most of them are just boiled linseed oil with a bit of resin added, along with thinner to create a wipe on poly finish.

Hi Kelly
Sorry for the late response, I have been away.

I don’t think there are errors on the site as what has been placed there comes from many sources, professionals in the field, our 25 plus years of working with timbers and various coatings in Australia and Europe and research into many published articles.

Please do not get me wrong, I am not nor do I pretend to be a furniture maker or wood turner however I have definitely worked with tools and get my hands dirty.

“Modified” Tung oil products contain urethane. Depending on the manufacture, this will dictate how much oil to urethane is in the mix. The molecular structure of the two do not necessarily mix well as the typically hard urethane coating is weakened by the oil molecules.

Tung oil is a good drying agent too so it is used in many external oils as well….however it is also a sensitiser to many that have sensitivities and in Europe this has to be shown on the label. Volatile Organic Compounds need to be considered as well.

There are many reasons of why timber moves and yes, I still suggest an oil finish is better than a Polyurethane finish for many reasons, but, it is not everyone cup of tea. Timber will move depending of how it was dried, room atmosphere, heating, type of timber, traffic, direct sunlight plus many more. If not allowed to move, timber will move at its weakest spot. In some soft timbers the boards themselves can crack.

Another huge benefit of an oiled floor is evident in the fact that more and more domestic and commercial sites are treating their timber floors in this way because one can spot repair or rejuvenate a floor without the continuous sanding back, which with time and multiple sands, the timber thickness is reduced.

Happy to go into more detail if you like Kelly but in the end, we all have our opinions and I respect yours…I don’t necessarily agree with it but that is fine and trust you don’t take offence. It is an open discussion and one can choose and investigate more what one reads.
Cheers.

The Livos Lady

The teak oil comment was meant in humor, since most know or would probably figure out they don’t squeeze teak trees for their oil. Teak oil has as much in common with teak as lemon oil does with lemons, the latter just being mineral oil with scent and a higher price tag.

Here is some information on “varnishes,” which would include poly finishes.

http://tcpermaculture.com/site/2014/08/04/tapping-the-pine-tree-plant-resins-and-their-uses/

“Varnish – This is a protective “finish” or application for wood and other materials. Varnish is usually transparent or mostly transparent. It goes on wet and dries hard. It can have various levels of sheen (high gloss, glossy, semi-gloss, satin, etc.). Traditional varnishes contain an oil, a resin, and a solvent. The oils, also known as drying oils, harden after long exposure to oxygen. Examples of drying oils are linseed oil, poppy seed oil, tung oil, and walnut oil. Resins have been discussed at length above, and varnish resins include amber, copal, balsam, copaiba, elemi, mastic, rosin, and sandarac. The most common solvent, by far, is turpentine.”